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Bill McKay joins Kathryn to talk about how cities in the 70s used to be described as doughnuts, with the CBD lifeless in the evenings and weekends - empty holes surrounded by suburbs. But the growth of hospitality and more liberal planning concepts have created the reverse doughnut. As more retail spaces are abandoned in the central city, what will that mean? Bill looks at what's been happening in Tauranga. Bill McKay is a Senior Lecturer in the School of Architecture and Planning at the University of Auckland.