Photo: RNZ / Cole Eastham-Farrelly / Jayne Joyce
There's not a lot that makes me more queasy than interviewing a fellow journalist.
Least of all Guyon Espiner, a journalist who mastered print, TV and radio over 30 years; who has hosted political debates; and written a conversation-starting book on the alcohol industry and his own heavy drinking.
To make matters worse, we share the same employer and I walk past Espiner's desk on my way to RNZ's IT department whenever I need help (which is most weeks).
Espiner is good at what he does. He stays far ahead of whoever he is speaking to - in this case me - mapping out the arc of a conversation usually before the first hand is played
"There is a strange thing that happens after about 15 minutes, 16, 17 minutes when people start to loosen up," he says.
So, it's a good thing that 30 with Guyon Espiner, his radio and TV show, is 30 minutes long.
The show's second season launches this Wednesday and that's what Espiner and I are talking about. It has a simple concept - a half hour uncut interview with a notable and interesting subject that includes politicians, activists, sports people and anyone else. Yes, they have their agenda for coming on the programme, but it is Espiner's job to knock them off their well-rehearsed and yawn-inducing talking points.
"It is not about catching people out, it is about getting an unvarnished response," he says, over a coffee in the cafe below RNZ's offices (Full disclosure: Espiner bought me a decaf flat white).
The end of this season will put 30's concept and Espiner up against a notoriously hard nut to crack - Prime Minister Christopher Luxon. Getting Luxon is a bit of a scoop.
Luxon and his government have been accused of giving media the "silent treatment" especially when it comes to long-form journalism like 30's extended format.
Espiner has a lot of hope that the Luxon episode will give viewers and listeners some meat to chew on. The other day, Luxon got slightly testy in a press conference and dropped a "freakin" bomb," which is about as close a swear word as we will get from Luxon, who is devout about his Christian faith (also something he doesn't like to talk about).
"That was a real moment and that is what you are after, where you are actually engaging rather than just spinning some line," says Espiner.
Other guests confirmed for season two of 30 include a former Trump advisor who has crossed party lines to endorse Vice President Kamala Harris and Mark Manson, the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck.
The uncut format of 30 gives the feel of live television that is on demand on the RNZ, TVNZ, YouTube and other podcast platforms. It comes at a time when trust in the media is at an all time low. A promise of just playing the tape means there is little room for manipulation or bias in the editing room because "what we film is what you get," Espiner says.
Not everyone is suited to the format. ACT's David Seymour appeared in the first season and Luxon comes this round. However, you're unlikely to see the Coalition's third piece sit in the 30 studio.
It's not that Foreign Minister Winston Peters isn't interesting and notable. He just has a tendency to launch on long tangents with unpredictable twists, the opposite challenge to interviewing many other politicians. In a previous interview with Espiner, Peters had his staff rummage through the boot of his car for a document that he said would prove he wasn't earlier sacked as a minister.
"I'm not sure I can top that," says Espiner.
Subjects that appear on 30 typically have what Espiner calls "three strands." In other words, their story is multi-dimensional. One of the less-typical guests on 30 last season was world champion boxer Mea Motu, whose personal story involves escaping a violent relationship.
"You don't need to be really fascinated with boxing to think 'Shit. Look at what she has done,'" Espiner says.
Each episode of 30 with Guyon Espiner goes live weekly at 3pm.