Hipkins tells BBC: Treaty settlement process 'very powerful ... but it isn't easy'

Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has told British media redress for indigenous peoples must be an open process that's "always a work in progress".

Hipkins appeared on Laura Kuenssberg's BBC weekend politics show Sunday for a 10-minute interview that covered the coronation, the monarchy, redress for colonialism, Meka Whaitiri's defection, Brexit, and sausage rolls.

The interview closed with Kuenssberg telling Brits: "And we thought our politics were sometimes a big strange, there we go - Chris Hipkins, the new Prime Minister of New Zealand and sausage roll fan".

Hipkins is expected to arrive back in New Zealand today in time to attend the weekly Cabinet meeting.

Treaty settlement process 'a very very powerful thing'

Kuenssberg asked the prime minister about calls from indigenous leaders around the world for an apology from the King about the UK's past - particularly its part in colonialism and slavery.

Hipkins said an apology from the Crown was often part of redress agreed to under the Treaty of Waitangi settlements process.

"We've got a process for reconciling breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi - and there were plenty of them," he said. "It's taken several decades and we're not finished yet, but we do work through identifying what those breaches were, what the harm caused by them was, actually creating a record of that, and in many cases the redress includes a full apology and that can come from the Crown."

He said it had not been easy, however.

"There's no doubt that when you look into the past and you delve into the past and you identify what's happened - in many cases horrific and horrible things have happened - actually making a record of that and then acknowledging it and then finding a way of providing some redress, I think it's a very very powerful thing.

"But it isn't easy - and it won't be quick. So any other countries who are looking at doing this, one of my messages is you have to do it appropriately and you have to approach it very openly - and you won't always get it right either. So it's always a work in progress."

He said it would not be appropriate for him to tell other countries what to do, as each had to make their own judgements, "but I would speak very positively about our experience".

He was also questioned about Meka Whaitiri's defection to Te Pāti Māori and wanting to join a political movement that was unapologetic about Māori political involvement - and whether that meant Labour had failed to do so.

"I think Māori New Zealanders don't all have one view politically, but like every section of the population, every ethnicity, they'll have a variety of different views - and you'll see that represented in our Parliament," Hipkins said.

He noted most political parties had Māori members, and said while he was disappointed Whaitiri had left, "I know that our Māori members of Parliament in the Labour Party play a really important role within our team, and they are outspoken on issues affecting Māori members of our community".

Free trade agreement: 'Certainly plenty in the deal for both sides'

She also asked Hipkins about Brexit, and whether it had damaged the UK's global reputation. He quickly pivoted to talking of the benefits of the free trade agreement between the two countries.

"We obviously welcome the opportunity to trade more with the United Kingdom," he said.

She asked if he felt the deal was fair - considering it was estimated to bring a 0.01 percent boost in GDP to the UK but a roughly 0.35 percent boost to New Zealand.

Hipkins said that was not a fair comparison.

"Well, the UK of course is a much much larger economy than New Zealand so a single trade agreement is by definition going to make up a smaller contribution of their GDP," he said.

"We're a very small trading nation and our export industries - particularly in some of the areas where the trade agreement covers - they're a very big part of our economy so I think as a percentage of GDP it's probably not a fair comparison.

"I think all trade agreements, you've got to make sure that both sides are getting something out of it and I think that's the case with this one."

He rejected the claim New Zealand had somehow "pulled one over" on the UK.

Hipkins the 'technical republican'

The interview was, of course, partly as a result of Hipkins attending the coronation of King Charles III over the weekend - and Kuenssberg questioned him about his role.

He said it was a "huge honour" to be part of something so historically significant.

"It was a really nice feel in the abbey, I think everyone was wanting to be really dignified and restrained and nobody wanted to make a mistake, but actually just a real feeling of goodwill and excitement."

She put to him that as a republican he did not believe the monarch should even exist, but - describing himself as a "technical republican" he disputed that.

"It's not that I don't think the monarchy should exist," he said. "If you were going to write a constitution for New Zealand, who would be the head of state? In my mind it would be nice to have someone who is in New Zealand."

Like the UK, New Zealand's constitution is not contained in a single document and Hipkins said changing the country's current structure would "raise a whole lot of constitutional questions".

He said there had already been opportunities, like the Queen's death, for New Zealanders to say "we think now's the time to have the debate", but there had not been enough noise.

"I think it will happen eventually... I think a lot of New Zealanders take the view of 'it's not broken, don't try and fix it', and it's working okay."

"I also don't think it's a pressing priority at the moment - there's a lot happening and this isn't at the top of the list."

Hipkins spoke to the King earlier in the week. He said much of their chat was about Cyclone Gabrielle, which led into a conversation about climate change and resilience.

Royal rolls

Hipkins also took a diplomatic stance on a matter of taste, having been presented on his UK travels with sausage rolls from both King Charles and UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.

He said the rolls he'd had in the UK so far had been "pretty good, they've been up there" in quality compared to New Zealand's.

"I have to say there have been some surreal moments in the past week. For a boy who grew up in the working class suburbs of Lower Hutt, becoming prime minister of new Zealand was a pretty big honour," he said.

Kuenssberg put to him that the sausage roll moment was "pretty weird".

"The sausage roll moment's really cool, actually," he said, "word got round back home and I get a lot of sausage rolls wherever I go at home in New Zealand at the moment - but to be presented them by the King and by the Prime Minister of the UK, that's next level."

He said it would be "dangerous territory" to make a ruling on whose were better.

"It depends, there's a lot that goes into a good sausage roll, you've got to get the right mix of meat and pastry."

With an election just months away and more than one MP having defected from their party since he departed, Hipkins will certainly be returning to some complex and textured matters of substance in New Zealand.