Wall stories: Exploring street art in Aotearoa

If These Walls Could Talk explores street art in New Zealand through profiles of five artists - Elliot O'Donnell (AskewOne), Mica Still, Benjamin Work, BMD and Elliot Francis Stewart. 

The producer of the web series, Ross Liew, is one the founders of street art crew Cut Collective. The Wireless spoke to him ahead of the release of the series, which comes out tomorrow, about why the stories needed to be told, using street art to teach and its place in the arts scene.

What led you to produce If These Walls Could Talk? 

It's basically a response to a lack of material about New Zealand artists, I suppose. Because I'm so close to it, I kind of know the stories of the individuals and the characters; I know their work and I know their path way but there's nothing around that — where you could find that information if you didn't know these people personally. 

Also, from an educational point of view - I've been a high school art teacher myself and I know that the work that I've done as Cut Collective has been used as artists models studies in high school and I know when I was teaching, there wasn't a lot of information available other than what I knew. I was really aware that it would be quite a valuable resource for anyone having to do research projects or trying to find local artists models working in this area. 

I think there’s student-led interest in this and I think teachers are responding to that. 

When you say local artists, you're meaning graffiti artists hey? 

I mean street artists, I suppose, in the way that that term is generally used. So anyone who paints walls outside. And that might be someone whose work is closer to graffiti or someone whose work is quite far away from what graffiti is but the way I talk about the series, is that it's really about five artists from New Zealand who like to paint walls, so that's the common thread. 

Where did you shoot it? 

In Wellington and Auckland. There has been a lot of painting in Christchurch but we didn't base any of our stories around that. 

What was the brief the artists were given when they came on board? 

There was no real brief for the artist, it was essentially saying “I want to make  a series that looks at the practice of some of our artists, I think you'd be a great candidate”, because, you know, your story’s interesting for whatever reason.

I just explained the fact that we’d want to sit them down, interview them and talk about their practice in quite a bit of depth and ask them questions about the whole dynamic of working in public space and what are the issues around community engagement and working with an interactive public. 

We've just kind of joined them, I suppose, in amongst their practice, whether they are working through a series or an idea, which might be a wall and a continuation of a number of walls and they're just exploring something ... So yeah entirely artist-led. 

In your experience, have you found it's important to define the difference between street art and graffiti?

In some instances, it is important, but I think it's more important for the practitioners, the artists themselves, because that common thread.

It’s a group of people who like to paint walls and everyone's got  a pathway that's lead them to that point. For some, they've come through a graffiti pathway. There's actually a lot of tradition around that, which you kind of have to acknowledge because it's a pretty substantial culture on its own right.

To speak about that work they've done, like graffiti, and then call it street art, can be inaccurate. But that’s being quite specific. In the instance of just trying to communicate to a wider public, you don't necessarily have the opportunity to go in detail about the difference between graffiti and street art. 

What are some of the stories told that you found surprising?

I think what viewers will find surprising is the range of characters. Everyone's compelled to do the same thing but for different reasons and they’ve come from quite different backgrounds … the amount of sacrifice, I think would be quite surprising for a lot of people. 

Being an artist, you take it for granted that not a lot of people would be aware of that - people are undertaking really large projects, painting big walls - at costs to themselves a lot of the time and so there's quite a large investment, of not just your time and energy but money into that. 

The artists talk about that sacrifice that they make to be able to do this and I think that would be quite surprising for a lot of people. I think we all know that anyone involved in art isn't typically going to be rich or aren't there to make a lot of money, but I still think the level of sacrifice the artists make to do this would be quite surprising. 

In terms of taking it back to the classroom, it's interesting how the curriculum has changed and older students can earn NCEA credits in something they're interested in, once they get to later years in high school. 

I remember as a student - and as a teacher teaching students - I just think of what it would have been like if I had content that was created around student interest as opposed to the student turns up and you go “alright, well we're going to look at this guy”, and the ability to engage them on that is kind of down to the teacher's talent, ability, and their personal skill with storytelling as much as it is with choosing something that they think will engage the students.

For a large amount of students who are looking at a contemporary art form - which this is - you kind of have them from the word go. 

All the artists I know field a lot of enquiries to speak at universities or speak at high schools or to supply some more information cause some class somewhere is studying their work.

It has been a response to need as well - not just like, I think it would be good if it was out there. 

What do you think it is about street art that engages students? 

I think it's definitely about the fact that it doesn't rely on the convention of going to a specific place to have an experience, it doesn't rely on a gallery platform or any of that traditional kind of institution of any sort - it's a very democratic platform and I think, by the very fact that it's decided to go “well actually we're going to reject all of that and we're just going to put it out there anyway”,  especially given that its roots are in illegal activity.

“I'm just going to do it, and I don't care and I'll do it when no one's looking” and then it will be there and everyone can see it and if they don't like it they can paint it out or if someone else doesn't like it, they'll paint their art work over it, it's just far more democratic, and I don't think that's necessarily  what the students know that they're attracted to about it but I think there's an inherent freedom and activity and energy that's there. 

Some of these artists in the series, like Askew and BMD have a good international following …

Askew's a really great example because his profile here is so low compared to the esteem he's held in as well. There's a high level of regard for him and his work - overseas probably more so than there is here. 

Is there a sense, while you were producing, that perhaps Kiwi artists should have a bigger profile on home soil? 

Absolutely, I guess one of the things that the series has been trying to do is - I don't want to say legitimise - but lend some credibility to the work that these artists are doing and Askew has got this huge regard and following overseas but it's that kind of sad thing that we in New Zealand wait for a signal or for somewhere else to endorse that person before we can support them. 

That is kind of part of the dynamic with this and something the series is trying to address, really just saying look at these artists that we have here, working away really hard, making a lot of sacrifice and achieving really great things, I kind of want them to be given a bggier platform to engage in the more international dialogue really.

Because we have a vernacular down here, we address issues in the work down here that I think is about the identity of a country that's part of the Pacific and I think that's important to contribute to the wider conversation around the world. 

Is there a conversation that goes on amongst you guys as to why our artists get put to the side, so to speak? 

[Chuckles] I think the conversation that goes on is that our artists get left out …It is easy to feel left out. If you look at what Elliot's [Askew] done, he has worked really hard to be overseas as much as possible and with his own sacrifices and that's paying off really well for him, but there is no pathway really, there is no support for our artists to do that unless it's off their own back and while Askew's been really successful with it, there are a lot of other artists who would have similar success if they'd had a bit of support behind them to kick it off.

In your opinion, why is street art important? 

That's a really cool question because I've been asking artists that as well.

I’m a little bit flummoxed with that. Its like “wow, I'm not quite sure”. And if you look at it, art in general, where does it come in the hierarchy of what's important, there's a lot of things that come before it.

But I think what street art actually does is demonstrate that there's a community - an engaged community - who are willing to contribute to help talk about things, raise issues or make a point, or just contribute something visually to the environment.

For me it's really about contribution, it is, and the fact that we accept that not everyone's going to like everything that people do, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't take place or exist anyway, because we view it as something very temporary, you know it changes.

What I think is very valuable is that it's up to date, evolving, it's current and it should be viewed that way, I don't think any piece of street art or mural should be rarefied to the point of preservation forever, you know. Viewing as a temporary thing is actually a very good thing. 

What are you most pleased with, or proud of, now that the series is done? 

[Laughs] Gee, I’m actually really proud that we actually have something to release. [stops kidding] 

I'm really pleased that the whole concept’s being endorsed so strongly, firstly through the public body which is NZ On Air so sort of seeing the value in the concept and stories that we’re wanting to tell and also the endorsement from within the community, art making community, and then the general public.

From what I can tell, without having released the material, or the project itself, there’s a real appetite for it and a real interest in it and that’s cool because it kind of confirms the sense that I have that this stuff is important but it’s also of a lot of interest to people. 

Do you view If These Walls Could Talk as a further acceptance of graffiti art from the general public as an advancement for the scene in New Zealand? 

I think it is, in terms of funding for a broadcast. 

As Cut Collective, we’ve been involved in institutions like the Dowse and the Dunedin Public Art Gallery and other people and artists practicing have been recognised by art institutions, through exhibition practice.

That sort of speaks to quite a small audience I think because that’s still relying on an exhibition or gallery audience and you might be able to break a little bit out of the mould. I do think this is further endorsement from institutional or public bodies about the work that is happening and my kind of anecdotal experience would endorse that also in terms of the work that I’ve engaged with council and other public bodies, you know. 

I think there’s  a  real recognition and interest in the value of what it can contribute to our communities and to our built environments. I see its role as quite important within place making — just as much as design and pedestrian-only areas. 

You know, good lighting that provides a positive atmosphere, functional street furniture that encourages people to make use of public space, I think there’s an awareness now that street art and murals, are a part of that equation. 

 Personally, do you have some sort of feeling towards the public responding in such an increasingly positive way?

It’s a bit of speculation really but I think, the fact that New Zealanders, by tradition, are a well-travelled people, and the fact that this activity around the world is massive in pretty much every city; throughout the world there’s some presence of street art and some of them it’s actually of a really, really high standard not on terms of a level of skill — in terms of proliferation.

I think that’s a contributor and I think a part of it’s education and part of it’s realising, because the thing that we battled with years ago, was this simple description that spray can equals criminal really, or it proposes a threat; so we’ve made people understand a little more that that was just a tool.

If people watch the series they’ll sort of see that, yeah, well, you know they’re just actually really really really good people who contribute quite a lot.

This content is brought to you with funding support from New Zealand On Air.