David Seymour goes head-to-head in a heated debate with iwi leader

Act Party leader David Seymour and Ngāti Toa leader Helmut Modlik debated the place of Te Tiriti in modern Aotearoa in an at times heated online debate on Tuesday night.

They were each given three minutes for their opening statements and then had to field a series of quickfire questions from hosts Martyn Bradbury and Damien Grant.

Read more:

• What you need to know about the Treaty Principles Bill.
• And why it won't become law.

Seymour said many of the problems facing the country couldn't be solved because of what he called a "divisive interpretation" of the Treaty of Waitangi.

"The Treaty Principles Bill is the solution to that problem, it says that the treaty means what it says and says what it means, the government has the right to govern, everyone has their basic rights protected, and everyone has the same rights and duties."

Modlik said truth, fairness and justice were at stake.

"It's a historical fact that every non-Māori person, every democratic or civil institution in this land is only here because the sovereign tribes of Aotearoa and the British empire reached agreement on the terms of their existence here in 1840."

He said the idea that the rangatira of 1840 would surrender their mana is totally preposterous.

Seymour argued Māori did just that.

"But that is not to give those Māori some credit. They actually realised that they were dealing with the representatives of the only global superpower," he said.

Modlik interrupted him saying that was "preposterous".

He said there was no linguistic, cultural, or historical evidence to prove the chiefs ceded their sovereignty in 1840.

Seymour told him he should be a supporter of the Treaty Principles Bill.

"You want to live in a country where the treaty is our founding document and the right to govern comes out of it, it comes out of that principle so it's not really clear what you actually disagree with, I mean you should be a supporter of Treaty Principles Bill."

Modlik interjected again, asking if he could clarify, saying if rangatira did not cede sovereignty then the British Parliament had no legitimate basis to establish the New Zealand government in the first place

At the debate's end both men were given two minutes to give their closing statements.

Listen:

• The history of the Treaty Principles.

Seymour said the Treaty had gone off beam in the way that it has been interpreted by the Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal.

"The way that it has been interpreted by a relatively small group of people is inconsistent with universal human rights and the things that allow countries to flourish by letting each person flourish no matter what their background is or who their ancestors were.

Modlik finished by saying the country's democracy was a work in progress and to strengthen it Aotearoa must continue its journey of truth and reconciliation.

"But what might it look like, surprise-surprise whānau, it's already happening. All over the country you can see examples where hapū and iwi are working in genuine relationships with local central government communities, private sector in a way that you now want to destroy but that's not going to happen."

Once the debate concluded the online audience was polled on who they thought won.

54 percent voted for Helmut Modlik and 43 percent for David Seymour.