Finance Minister Nicola Willis (left) has challenged her predecessor Ruth Richardson. Photo: RNZ/Reece Baker/Supplied
The debate over the debate between finance ministers is becoming farcical, with each accusing the other of trying to get out of the commitment.
Finance Minister Nicola Willis and her 1990s predecessor Ruth Richardson are disputing when and where to hold their promised clash.
Willis is refusing to favour a specific media outlet, while Richardson gave her opponent an ultimatum to agree to the showdown on NewstalkZB by 5pm.
The Finance Minister this week challenged Richardson - the chair of the Taxpayers' Union group - to "come out of the shadows" and debate on the country's finances after the TPU launched a campaign criticising the government's finances.
Richardson first laughed off the request, but later agreed.
Labour said the debate was a "sideshow", and the Public Service Association union said it was a "false flag" operation aimed at making Willis appear more moderate.
But after Willis said she was happy to debate "anytime, anywhere", the debate going ahead may depend on whether the pair can agree on a time and a place.
"My proposal is that we hold it here at Parliament next week," Willis told reporters on Thursday when heading into Question Time, "and that we do do it after the half-year update as Richardson has suggested".
She said that was so that all media could attend.
"I'm an equal-opportunity person, I think it's fair that all of your journalists get a go at recording the debate so that as many New Zealanders as possible can listen to it."
Minutes later, Richardson put out a media release giving Willis an ultimatum to agree by 5pm to debate her on Newstalk ZB/Herald Now.
"Enough with the dilly-dallying. You laid down the gauntlet with 'any time , any place', and we have come back with the offer. Take it or leave it.
"We know you're trying to negotiate with a taxpayer-funded, left-wing website - when the offer on the table is the largest broadcast audience in New Zealand ... you have until 5pm or we're out."
Willis later said she had already booked the Legislative Council Chamber for the debate, and Richardson was "trying to get out of it, obviously".
"Her first reaction was to say no ... she then obviously got talked into it by someone else, and now they're finding a way to back out. That's okay, I want to have the debate, let's have the debate here at Parliament, neutral turf."
Asked who the moderator could be, Willis said she would not want to preference one outlet over another but Spinoff editor-at-large Toby Manhire had recently done a substantive series on the Fourth National Government, including interviews with Richardson.
"I know she was very happy to sit down with him for extensive interviews, so perhaps he would be a neutral offer."
The Spinoff could be the "taxpayer-funded, left-wing website" Richardson had been referring to.
"The emcee of a debate should be neutral, and it should be equal opportunity to all media outlets. So let's do it fairly, let's do it soon, I want to do it next week, as soon as possible suits me," Willis said.
"Let's get beyond the fudge boxes, shall we?"
The dispute over a venue came after the TPU sent fudge out to newsrooms across the country, insinuating Willis was "fudging" the numbers.
Willis denied that outright.
"Not at all, the numbers are all set out very clearly and we will update them again next week. We do full revelation of the numbers," she said.
"The simple fact is that spending as a proportion of GDP has been lower under our government than it was under the last because of the significant fiscal savings that we've made, $43 billion of savings so far."
Asked about the fudge, she said that if the TPU spent as much time on savings ideas as they did on fudge design, they could make a useful contribution to public debate.
"We reduced spending as a proportion of the economy. We also, I'd point out to the Taxpayers' Union, reduced taxes - not only for all working New Zealanders but for businesses making investments in growth."
She noted parties on the left were proposing more tax, with Labour advocating for a capital gains tax and the Greens and Te Pāti Māori calling for a wealth tax.
Asked about the PSA's claim about the debate being a stunt, Willis replied: "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. I'm stuck in the middle and that's where New Zealand is too."
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